Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

12 Apr 2008 17:51:10

ronwer

Hi!

I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.

What I would be interested in is as follows:

-type numbers of the diodes
-name/type number of radar/communication equipment
-technical infor on those systems
-info on producers
-pictures of actual diodes, also "in" the circuits
-anecdotal stories about the actual use
-anything else!

The information will be used for an on-going study project related to
practical application of minerals (i.e. quartz) in industry and technology.

So, since this is an aspect of a broader study, other quartz-related info
would
be most appreciated, especially about early use of piezoelectric
quartz crystals in electronic equipment.

If you'd prefer, answering off-list is possible:

neo.dymium@yahoo.com

Thanks for ANY help!

Ronald
Norway

12 Apr 2008 09:16:40

Joerg

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

ronwer wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>
> -type numbers of the diodes
> -name/type number of radar/communication equipment
> -technical infor on those systems
> -info on producers
> -pictures of actual diodes, also "in" the circuits
> -anecdotal stories about the actual use
> -anything else!
>
> The information will be used for an on-going study project related to
> practical application of minerals (i.e. quartz) in industry and technology.
>
> So, since this is an aspect of a broader study, other quartz-related info
> would
> be most appreciated, especially about early use of piezoelectric
> quartz crystals in electronic equipment.
>
> If you'd prefer, answering off-list is possible:
>
> neo.dymium@yahoo.com
>
>
> Thanks for ANY help!
>

Probably you could start by finding information about this gear but
there would have to be someone on the team who can understand German:
http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/index.html?/gdr_5_deutschefunkmesstechnikim2wk.html

Many such sites have links to British and American gear but often also
in German. Another option are senior centers. A few of the EEs from
those days are still alive but there won't be much time left.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

12 Apr 2008 11:24:19

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

12 Apr 2008 11:29:18

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
><neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi!
>>
>>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>
>>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>
>>-type numbers of the diodes
>
>---
>1N23 is a good place to start.

---
Oops... brain fart.

The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.

JF

12 Apr 2008 12:31:58

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Fields wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi!
> >
> >I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
> >communication equipment during the Second World War.
> >
> >What I would be interested in is as follows:
> >
> >-type numbers of the diodes
>
> ---
> 1N23 is a good place to start.

I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
probably made for 'White Alice'.

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12 Apr 2008 12:51:53

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
>
> John Fields wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
> > <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Hi!
> > >
> > >I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
> > >communication equipment during the Second World War.
> > >
> > >What I would be interested in is as follows:
> > >
> > >-type numbers of the diodes
> >
> > ---
> > 1N23 is a good place to start.
>
> I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
> some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
> probably made for 'White Alice'.

Actually, I think it is a 1N21.

Here is a web page selling some of the early microwave diodes:
http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/rf-diodes.html

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12 Apr 2008 19:23:38

ronwer

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

> Probably you could start by finding information about this gear but there
> would have to be someone on the team who can understand German:
> http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/index.html?/gdr_5_deutschefunkmesstechnikim2wk.html
>
> Many such sites have links to British and American gear but often also in
> German. Another option are senior centers. A few of the EEs from those
> days are still alive but there won't be much time left.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg

Thanks! I will check this out. German is no problem whatsoever!

Best regards,

Ronald
Norway

12 Apr 2008 11:42:42

Don Bowey

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On 4/12/08 9:31 AM, in article
KqmdnRpvIuJgfp3VnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net > wrote:

>
> John Fields wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>
>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>
>> ---
>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>
>
> I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
> some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
> probably made for 'White Alice'.
>

In which case it was likely used in the FPS19 radar or/and the Tropo systems
if my memory isn't fractured. But the early Projects were begun in the 50s.

John's post reprogrammed my erroneous thought that the 1N23 is germanium.
It is the 1N21 that is germanium, and likely existed in the 40s.

12 Apr 2008 12:32:02

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
<neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com > wrote:

>Hi!
>
>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>
>-type numbers of the diodes
>-name/type number of radar/communication equipment
>-technical infor on those systems
>-info on producers
>-pictures of actual diodes, also "in" the circuits
>-anecdotal stories about the actual use
>-anything else!
>
>The information will be used for an on-going study project related to
>practical application of minerals (i.e. quartz) in industry and technology.
>
>So, since this is an aspect of a broader study, other quartz-related info
>would
>be most appreciated, especially about early use of piezoelectric
>quartz crystals in electronic equipment.
>
>If you'd prefer, answering off-list is possible:
>
>neo.dymium@yahoo.com
>
>
>Thanks for ANY help!
>
>
>Ronald
>Norway
>
>

Volume 15 of the MIT RadLab books, "Crystal Rectifiers" 440 pages, is
all about that. History, theory, parts, applications. Appendix D lists
the common mixer types. The history part mentions early mineral-based
rectifiers.

Some interesting sections are one which notes that some diodes have
power gain when used as mixers, and a suggestion that semiconductor
triodes should be possible, and some interesting 100-volt
welded-junction "power" diodes.

Volume 16, "Microwave Mixers" has some more stuff.

These books show up on ebay, or a used-book thing like Alibris.

I think Bliley Corp may have some papers on the history of quartz
crystals. They, along with the point-contact diode, helped to win the
war.

John

12 Apr 2008 12:38:07

Joerg

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

ronwer wrote:
>> Probably you could start by finding information about this gear but there
>> would have to be someone on the team who can understand German:
>> http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/index.html?/gdr_5_deutschefunkmesstechnikim2wk.html
>>
>> Many such sites have links to British and American gear but often also in
>> German. Another option are senior centers. A few of the EEs from those
>> days are still alive but there won't be much time left.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>
>
> Thanks! I will check this out. German is no problem whatsoever!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ronald
> Norway
>

Ah, Norway. Then you might even find some WW-II veterans from the German
side. I've met a few when I was younger. Some had been stationed there
and liked it so much that they later moved to Scandinavia or bought a
summer house there. One friend of mine would have known a lot about
these Radars but unfortunately he passed away. He went on vacation to
Norway pretty much every year.

In contrast to today the guys at the sites were intimately familiar with
the circuitry because they had to repair this stuff on the component level.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

13 Apr 2008 20:54:08

Neodymium

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net > skrev i melding
news:Ac8Mj.8403$2g1.7646@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> ronwer wrote:
>>> Probably you could start by finding information about this gear but
>>> there would have to be someone on the team who can understand German:
>>> http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/index.html?/gdr_5_deutschefunkmesstechnikim2wk.html
>>>
>>> Many such sites have links to British and American gear but often also
>>> in German. Another option are senior centers. A few of the EEs from
>>> those days are still alive but there won't be much time left.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>>
>> Thanks! I will check this out. German is no problem whatsoever!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Ronald
>> Norway
>
> Ah, Norway. Then you might even find some WW-II veterans from the German
> side. I've met a few when I was younger. Some had been stationed there and
> liked it so much that they later moved to Scandinavia or bought a summer
> house there. One friend of mine would have known a lot about these Radars
> but unfortunately he passed away. He went on vacation to Norway pretty
> much every year.
>
> In contrast to today the guys at the sites were intimately familiar with
> the circuitry because they had to repair this stuff on the component
> level.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg

Hi Joerg,

Not a bad idea at all! I should try to locate one of those organisations for
WW-II veterans, you never know!

Thanks!

Ronald
Norway

13 Apr 2008 21:27:04

Neodymium

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

> Volume 15 of the MIT RadLab books, "Crystal Rectifiers" 440 pages, is
> all about that. History, theory, parts, applications. Appendix D lists
> the common mixer types. The history part mentions early mineral-based
> rectifiers.
>
> Some interesting sections are one which notes that some diodes have
> power gain when used as mixers, and a suggestion that semiconductor
> triodes should be possible, and some interesting 100-volt
> welded-junction "power" diodes.
>
> Volume 16, "Microwave Mixers" has some more stuff.
>
> These books show up on ebay, or a used-book thing like Alibris.

OK, thanks for the titles, will definitely look for them on eBay or Amazone.
Alibris is new to me, but I'll check.

> I think Bliley Corp may have some papers on the history of quartz
> crystals. They, along with the point-contact diode, helped to win the
> war.

I will definitely try Bliley!

But otherwise, yes, that is one of the important issues I want to document:
to what extent where these components decisive for the outcome of the war.
Interesting stuff, good for the museum expositions I am working on!

Ronald
Norway

13 Apr 2008 21:41:52

Neodymium

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"Don Bowey" <dbowey@comcast.net > skrev i melding
news:C42650B2.B518B%dbowey@comcast.net...
> On 4/12/08 9:31 AM, in article
> KqmdnRpvIuJgfp3VnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> John Fields wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>
>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>
>>> ---
>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>
>>
>> I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
>> some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
>> probably made for 'White Alice'.
>>
>
> In which case it was likely used in the FPS19 radar or/and the Tropo
> systems
> if my memory isn't fractured. But the early Projects were begun in the
> 50s.
>
> John's post reprogrammed my erroneous thought that the 1N23 is germanium.
> It is the 1N21 that is germanium, and likely existed in the 40s.

I googled for 1N23, some say germanium, others silicon...

But you are sure it IS silicon!?

One datasheet I found was in Japanese/Chineze, and the other didn't mention
Si/Ge at all. Max f=9,325 GHz

It's hard surfing effectively with only 56 kbs at a hilltop far from the
civilized world.

At Wikipedia they said germanium:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMA_tube_designation

I am out on a job, but when I get back in Mai I can check my own sample with
a multimeter, that will give a result.

Ronald
Norway

13 Apr 2008 16:43:08

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

Neodymium wrote:
>
> I googled for 1N23, some say germanium, others silicon...
>
> But you are sure it IS silicon!?
>
> One datasheet I found was in Japanese/Chineze, and the other didn't mention
> Si/Ge at all. Max f=9,325 GHz
>
> It's hard surfing effectively with only 56 kbs at a hilltop far from the
> civilized world.
>
> At Wikipedia they said germanium:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMA_tube_designation
>
> I am out on a job, but when I get back in Mai I can check my own sample with
> a multimeter, that will give a result.

Be careful. Those early diodes were very fragile. They were easy to
damage with static, or over current. The military had a special test
set for them. You might luck out and find the schematic online. The link
I posted in another message had the Test Set model number TS-286C/U
listed.

http://www.avtechpulse.com/faq.html/might be of interest, as well.

http://prola.aps.org/abstract/RMP/v67/i2/p397_1

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13 Apr 2008 14:29:08

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:27:04 +0200, "Neodymium" <neo.dymium@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>> Volume 15 of the MIT RadLab books, "Crystal Rectifiers" 440 pages, is
>> all about that. History, theory, parts, applications. Appendix D lists
>> the common mixer types. The history part mentions early mineral-based
>> rectifiers.
>>
>> Some interesting sections are one which notes that some diodes have
>> power gain when used as mixers, and a suggestion that semiconductor
>> triodes should be possible, and some interesting 100-volt
>> welded-junction "power" diodes.
>>
>> Volume 16, "Microwave Mixers" has some more stuff.
>>
>> These books show up on ebay, or a used-book thing like Alibris.
>
>OK, thanks for the titles, will definitely look for them on eBay or Amazone.
>Alibris is new to me, but I'll check.
>
>
>> I think Bliley Corp may have some papers on the history of quartz
>> crystals. They, along with the point-contact diode, helped to win the
>> war.
>
>I will definitely try Bliley!
>
>But otherwise, yes, that is one of the important issues I want to document:
>to what extent where these components decisive for the outcome of the war.
>Interesting stuff, good for the museum expositions I am working on!
>
>Ronald
>Norway
>

Also look into mica capacitors, and the use of mica as structural
insulators in vacuum tubes and as a filler in phenolic sockets and
such. Mica is unique: it's a good dielectric, a great high-temperature
insulator and support, and naturally fractures into high-quality
transparant sheets of nearly any desired thickness, yet is easily
sheared and punched.

John

13 Apr 2008 18:25:10

Joerg

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

Joerg wrote:
> ronwer wrote:
>>> Probably you could start by finding information about this gear but
>>> there would have to be someone on the team who can understand German:
>>> http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/index.html?/gdr_5_deutschefunkmesstechnikim2wk.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Many such sites have links to British and American gear but often
>>> also in German. Another option are senior centers. A few of the EEs
>>> from those days are still alive but there won't be much time left.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>>
>> Thanks! I will check this out. German is no problem whatsoever!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Ronald
>> Norway
>
> Ah, Norway. Then you might even find some WW-II veterans from the German
> side. I've met a few when I was younger. Some had been stationed there
> and liked it so much that they later moved to Scandinavia or bought a
> summer house there. One friend of mine would have known a lot about
> these Radars but unfortunately he passed away. He went on vacation to
> Norway pretty much every year.
>
> In contrast to today the guys at the sites were intimately familiar with
> the circuitry because they had to repair this stuff on the component level.
>

Here is another link for you. Looks like the first patent for a silicon
diode was issued in 1906. That blew me away. Starts at page 7:

http://assets.cambridge.org/052183/5267/sample/0521835267ws.pdf

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

14 Apr 2008 14:13:03

Barry Lennox

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
<neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com > wrote:

>Hi!
>
>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>
>-type numbers of the diodes
>-name/type number of radar/communication equipment
>-technical infor on those systems
>-info on producers
>-pictures of actual diodes, also "in" the circuits
>-anecdotal stories about the actual use
>-anything else!

As mentioned by another, Vol 15 and 16 of the Radlab series has a lot
of what you will be after. But also check out the Vol 17: "Components
handbook" that also has a fair amount on diodes.

Also, look at "A History of Engineering and Science in the Bell
System1925-1975" There are 6 volumes, ranging from 360 to about 1000
pages, and they all cover diodes to some extent.

The RSGB "Technical Topics" scrapbooks (there's now 4) compiled by
G3VA, Pat Hawker, also mentions WW2 equipments and components in many
places. He was initially a VI, then joined Special Comms and SOE
during the war.

I also had an interesting book by Philips back in the 60's on diodes,
long gone now tho!

Barry

13 Apr 2008 19:30:35

Don Bowey

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On 4/13/08 12:41 PM, in article io6dneayupGK_5_VRVnzvQA@telenor.com,
"Neodymium" <neo.dymium@yahoo.com > wrote:

>
> "Don Bowey" <dbowey@comcast.net> skrev i melding
> news:C42650B2.B518B%dbowey@comcast.net...
>> On 4/12/08 9:31 AM, in article
>> KqmdnRpvIuJgfp3VnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> John Fields wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>
>>>
>>> I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
>>> some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
>>> probably made for 'White Alice'.
>>>
>>
>> In which case it was likely used in the FPS19 radar or/and the Tropo
>> systems
>> if my memory isn't fractured. But the early Projects were begun in the
>> 50s.
>>
>> John's post reprogrammed my erroneous thought that the 1N23 is germanium.
>> It is the 1N21 that is germanium, and likely existed in the 40s.
>
>
> I googled for 1N23, some say germanium, others silicon...

Some of the "documentation" is so bad it's impossible to interpret it with
any assurance of being correct. However, I did find what I believe to be
valid data: the 1N23 is a Point Contact, Silicon device.

>
> But you are sure it IS silicon!?

Now I am.
>
> One datasheet I found was in Japanese/Chineze, and the other didn't mention
> Si/Ge at all. Max f=9,325 GHz
>
> It's hard surfing effectively with only 56 kbs at a hilltop far from the
> civilized world.
>
> At Wikipedia they said germanium:

Wiki has some Very bad information about diodes.

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMA_tube_designation
>
> I am out on a job, but when I get back in Mai I can check my own sample with
> a multimeter, that will give a result.

Handle them carefully, as static discharge can destroy them easily.

>
>
> Ronald
> Norway
>
>
>
>

14 Apr 2008 09:18:53

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:41:52 +0200, "Neodymium" <neo.dymium@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>
>"Don Bowey" <dbowey@comcast.net> skrev i melding
>news:C42650B2.B518B%dbowey@comcast.net...
>> On 4/12/08 9:31 AM, in article
>> KqmdnRpvIuJgfp3VnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> John Fields wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>
>>>
>>> I still have one, wrapped in the lead foil that was surplused from
>>> some earlier WE microwave relay equipment. From the looks of it, it was
>>> probably made for 'White Alice'.
>>>
>>
>> In which case it was likely used in the FPS19 radar or/and the Tropo
>> systems
>> if my memory isn't fractured. But the early Projects were begun in the
>> 50s.
>>
>> John's post reprogrammed my erroneous thought that the 1N23 is germanium.
>> It is the 1N21 that is germanium, and likely existed in the 40s.
>
>
>I googled for 1N23, some say germanium, others silicon...
>
>But you are sure it IS silicon!?

---
http://www.advancedsemiconductor.com/pdf/diodes/SiliconPointContactMixer.pdf

And, here's a _good_ one:

http://www.computerhistory.org/semiconductor/timeline/1941-semiconductor.html

JF

20 Apr 2008 11:26:49

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>><neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi!
>>>
>>>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>
>>>-type numbers of the diodes
>>
>>---
>>1N23 is a good place to start.
>
>---
>Oops... brain fart.
>
>The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>
>JF

Not only that it was germanium not silicon.

20 Apr 2008 13:59:36

Don Bowey

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com > wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>
>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>
>>> ---
>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>
>> ---
>> Oops... brain fart.
>>
>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>
>> JF
>
> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.

Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.

20 Apr 2008 14:39:03

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net >
wrote:

>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>
>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>
>>> JF
>>
>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>
>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>they were silicon.
>

All my references say that the 1N23 is a silicon point-contact
(Schottky) diode. MicroMetrics still makes them - at insane prices -
and theirs are definitely silicon.

http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/PC_SXBandMixer.pdf

Some of the WWII vintage mixer diodes are impressive. Vf was typically
about 250 mV at 1 mA, and junction capacitances were a couple of
tenths of a pF, about as good as any packaged diode you can buy today.

John

20 Apr 2008 14:51:24

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

20 Apr 2008 18:06:40

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Larkin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> >
> >Oops... brain fart.
> >
> >The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
> >
> >JF
>
> Early 40's, actually. It was widely used as a radar mixer in WWII.

A lot of existing devices were given JEDEC numbers after the system
was created. Different manufacturers made similar parts, with different
numbering. That was why the standard was created.

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your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm

20 Apr 2008 18:08:21

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Larkin wrote:
>
> All my references say that the 1N23 is a silicon point-contact
> (Schottky) diode. MicroMetrics still makes them - at insane prices -
> and theirs are definitely silicon.
>
> http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/PC_SXBandMixer.pdf

Some originals are still avilible as NOS surplus, if you know where
to look. :)

> Some of the WWII vintage mixer diodes are impressive. Vf was typically
> about 250 mV at 1 mA, and junction capacitances were a couple of
> tenths of a pF, about as good as any packaged diode you can buy today.
>
> John

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20 Apr 2008 18:29:32

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:51:24 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>><neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi!
>>>>
>>>>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>
>>>>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>
>>>>-type numbers of the diodes
>>>
>>>---
>>>1N23 is a good place to start.
>>
>>---
>>Oops... brain fart.
>>
>>The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>
>>JF
>
>Early 40's, actually. It was widely used as a radar mixer in WWII.

---
Cite?

JF

20 Apr 2008 19:38:28

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:51:24 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>><neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>>I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>>What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>-type numbers of the diodes
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>
>>>---
>>>Oops... brain fart.
>>>
>>>The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>
>>>JF
>>
>>Early 40's, actually. It was widely used as a radar mixer in WWII.
>
>---
>Cite?
>
>JF

MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
published in 1948.

What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
until the '50's, I believe." ?

John

21 Apr 2008 03:03:32

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net >
wrote:

>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>
>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>
>>> JF
>>
>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>
>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>they were silicon.
>

The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

21 Apr 2008 13:23:53

Phil Allison

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"JosephKK"

>>>
>>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>>
>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found
>>said
>>they were silicon.
>>
>
> The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
> put one to test and the result was germanium.

** What "test " was that then - was the diode chip was removed, ground
up and fed into an " atomic absorption spectrometer " to see if it was
germanium ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Absorption_Spectrophotometry

Or maybe it was just a simple multimeter test of the forward voltage drop -
eh ?

Which gives an ambiguous result for germanium and silicon point contact
diodes - cos the forward drops are so similar.

> A heck of a lot of "official" or "authoritative" records are pure
> fertilizer.

** No Mr. KKK -

it is YOUR totally autism fucked, tiny brain that is so full of putrid
horse shit.

.... Phil

20 Apr 2008 20:45:08

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>>
>>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>>
>>>> JF
>>>
>>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>>
>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>>they were silicon.
>>
>
>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

What test?

John

20 Apr 2008 22:43:25

Don Bowey

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On 4/20/08 8:03 PM, in article fq0o0456in1873ki1d5srtsh611eq1a3nj@4ax.com,
"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com > wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>> "JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>>
>>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>>
>>>> JF
>>>
>>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>>
>> Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>> they were silicon.
>>
>
> The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
> put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
> "official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>

I'd chock that one up to undecided.

21 Apr 2008 09:25:01

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 20>

>>Cite?
>>
>>JF
>
>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>published in 1948.
>
>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>
>John

---
Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
they were new, as I recall.

JF

21 Apr 2008 09:28:11

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>wrote:

>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>>they were silicon.
>>
>
>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.

---
Can you spell "Schottky?"

JF

21 Apr 2008 07:58:29

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:25:01 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 20>
>
>>>Cite?
>>>
>>>JF
>>
>>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>>published in 1948.
>>
>>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>>
>>John
>
>---
>Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
>they were new, as I recall.
>
>JF

There were 1N23A's B's, C's, and maybe D's. 1N23, A and B were wartime
parts. Could have been C+ they were talking about. Or maybe they were
just wrong.

John

21 Apr 2008 11:24:46

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:58:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:25:01 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 20>
>>
>>>>Cite?
>>>>
>>>>JF
>>>
>>>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>>>published in 1948.
>>>
>>>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>>>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>---
>>Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
>>they were new, as I recall.
>>
>>JF
>
>There were 1N23A's B's, C's, and maybe D's. 1N23, A and B were wartime
>parts. Could have been C+ they were talking about. Or maybe they were
>just wrong.

---
Typical Larkinese...

JF

21 Apr 2008 09:41:00

Jim Thompson

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:24:46 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:58:29 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:25:01 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
>>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Sun, 20>
>>>
>>>>>Cite?
>>>>>
>>>>>JF
>>>>
>>>>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>>>>published in 1948.
>>>>
>>>>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>>>>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>---
>>>Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
>>>they were new, as I recall.
>>>
>>>JF
>>
>>There were 1N23A's B's, C's, and maybe D's. 1N23, A and B were wartime
>>parts. Could have been C+ they were talking about. Or maybe they were
>>just wrong.
>
>---
>Typical Larkinese...
>
>JF

Smart-ass ping-pong plonked... no redeeming social value ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

21 Apr 2008 14:04:18

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:24:46 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:58:29 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:25:01 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
>>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Sun, 20>
>>>
>>>>>Cite?
>>>>>
>>>>>JF
>>>>
>>>>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>>>>published in 1948.
>>>>
>>>>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>>>>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>---
>>>Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
>>>they were new, as I recall.
>>>
>>>JF
>>
>>There were 1N23A's B's, C's, and maybe D's. 1N23, A and B were wartime
>>parts. Could have been C+ they were talking about. Or maybe they were
>>just wrong.
>
>---
>Typical Larkinese...
>
>JF

You mean facts, as opposed to second-hand rumors you think you
remember? Guilty as charged.

John

21 Apr 2008 18:23:40

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:04:18 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:24:46 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:58:29 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:25:01 -0500, John Fields
>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:38:28 -0700, John Larkin
>>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:29:32 -0500, John Fields
>>>>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>>On Sun, 20>
>>>>
>>>>>>Cite?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>JF
>>>>>
>>>>>MIT RadLab books, volume 15, "Crystal Rectifiers", appendix D,
>>>>>published in 1948.
>>>>>
>>>>>What is the citation for your statement that "The 1N23 didn't appear
>>>>>until the '50's, I believe." ?
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>Working with them At Loral Electronics in New York and being told that
>>>>they were new, as I recall.
>>>>
>>>>JF
>>>
>>>There were 1N23A's B's, C's, and maybe D's. 1N23, A and B were wartime
>>>parts. Could have been C+ they were talking about. Or maybe they were
>>>just wrong.
>>
>>---
>>Typical Larkinese...
>>
>>JF
>
>
>You mean facts, as opposed to second-hand rumors you think you
>remember? Guilty as charged.

---
"and Maybe"

"Could have been"

"Or maybe"

are facts?

Maybe in your fantasy world, but to me it all sounds like conjecture.

The _fact_ is I originally commented to the OP that his quest might be
made easier by considering the 1N23 as a starting point for silicon
detectors, but then amended my original comment to reflect that the
first time I had contact with them was in the '50's, when I thought it
was new.

I guess, according to you, I was right in the first place.

Oh, well...

I guess your way is to clam up if you think you've made a mistake
unless someone calls you on it.

That's not my way. If I think I've made a mistake I own up to it as
soon as it looks questionable to me without waiting for anyone to prod
me into forced admission.

Your mileage certainly seems to vary.

BTW, for some reason I'm prohibited from accessing the Rad Lab series
via:

http://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries.html

so would you be so kind as to post the text referring explicitly to
the 1N23 and relevant deployment dating?

Thank you ever so much...

JF

22 Apr 2008 12:22:58

Michael A. Terrell

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Fields wrote:
>
> BTW, for some reason I'm prohibited from accessing the Rad Lab series
> via:
>
> http://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries.html
>
> so would you be so kind as to post the text referring explicitly to
> the 1N23 and relevant deployment dating?

John, you missed the note at the top of that page:

Note: These volumes are only accessable on site at Jefferson Lab.

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22 Apr 2008 20:19:49

Rich Grise

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>
> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
> communication equipment during the Second World War.

Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.

Thanks,
Rich

22 Apr 2008 21:30:42

Eeyore

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

Rich Grise wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
> >
> > I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
> > communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
> Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII?

Very much so. Point contact types.

Graham

22 Apr 2008 13:42:10

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net > wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>
>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>
>Thanks,
>Rich

Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.

The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.

John

22 Apr 2008 18:55:18

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>
>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>
>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Rich
>
>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>
>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.

---
John, I must say you're simply amazing!

Being able to postdict the butterfly effect is a gift few of us have.

JF

22 Apr 2008 18:17:10

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>>>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>>>
>>>>> JF
>>>>
>>>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>>>
>>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>>>they were silicon.
>>>
>>
>>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>
>What test?
>
>John

V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.

22 Apr 2008 18:19:18

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:28:11 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>
>>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>>>they were silicon.
>>>
>>
>>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>
>---
>Can you spell "Schottky?"
>
>JF

Certainly. 1N23s that i had were Ge also. Lost them on some move.

22 Apr 2008 19:00:35

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>
>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>
>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Rich
>
>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>
>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>
>John

Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.

23 Apr 2008 02:09:10

Don Klipstein

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

In article <pd3t04l5i3gck6c4r87f0a51e2qr5hia0e@4ax.com >, JosephKK wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found
>>>>said they were silicon.
>>>
>>>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>>>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>>>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>>
>>What test?
>
>V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.

I have seen silicon schottky diodes that drop about .3 volt at 1 amp.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

23 Apr 2008 02:20:37

Don Klipstein

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

In article <hr5t04l9866fsp3r3s3sqgjcasco3fv1gr@4ax.com >, JosephKK wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Rich
>>
>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>
>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>
>>John
>
>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>0.4 to 0.5 V.

I am on a temporary setup now that does not have Acrobat, but I somewhat
remember Vishay-IR STPS1L30UPBF or 1N5818 dropping maybe .35 volt at 1
amp. These are 30 volt 1 amp Schottky rectifiers.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

22 Apr 2008 21:04:37

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:10 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>>>>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
>>>>>>> <neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I would be interested in is as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -type numbers of the diodes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> 1N23 is a good place to start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Oops... brain fart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 1N23 didn't appear until the '50's, I believe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JF
>>>>>
>>>>> Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
>>>>
>>>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
>>>>they were silicon.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>>>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>>>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>>
>>What test?
>>
>>John
>
>V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.

Here are some curves from the RadLab book:

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadLabDiodes.JPG

ftp://66.117.156.8/RadDiode2.JPG

Your data point is dead on the point-contact Silicon diode curve.

John

22 Apr 2008 21:16:24

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:55:18 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Rich
>>
>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>
>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>
>---
>John, I must say you're simply amazing!
>
>Being able to postdict the butterfly effect is a gift few of us have.
>
>JF

One of the MIT books says that "a semiconductor triode should be
possible." But that wasn't their mandate. The RadLab was disbanded in
late 1945.

John

22 Apr 2008 21:40:49

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Rich
>>
>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>
>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>
>>John
>
>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>0.4 to 0.5 V.

This is a silicon point-contact diode, essentially the same as the
WWII parts, expect that they get to use modern, very pure silicon:

http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/PC_SXBandMixer.pdf

Skyworks makes some very low capacitance (below 0.5 pF) schottkies
that are similar.

This is 300 mV *max* at 100 mA, so should be down there. I think the
schottky curve is sorta similar to the silicon PN curve, which is 60
mV per decade of current.

http://www.centralsemi.com/PDFs/products/CMHSH5-2L.PDF

I posted some WWII diode curves elsewhere, well under 200 mV at 1 mA.

Gee.

John

23 Apr 2008 14:53:34

Phil Allison

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"JosephKKK Lunatic & Congenital LIAR "
>
> Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
> I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
> 0.4 to 0.5 V.

** Examples tested:

BAT46 = 0.261 V @ 1mA

MBR745 = 0.194 V @ 1mA

For comparison

AAZ15 (Ge) = 0.230 V @ 1 mA

The 1N23 ( Silicon point contact) is 0.25 V @ 1mA

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.net/datasheet-pdf/view/121948/ETC/1N23.html

...... Phil

23 Apr 2008 11:10:01

Baron

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

Rich Grise inscribed thus:

> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>
>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>
> Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
> announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich

Yes ! I have some devices that were made in the mid to late 40's.

Also if I can find them I have some pre war point contact detectors that
have screw terminals on the ends.

Baron.

23 Apr 2008 08:51:25

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>
>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Rich
>>
>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>
>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>
>>John
>
>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>0.4 to 0.5 V.

---
I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

JF

23 Apr 2008 15:28:16

Eeyore

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Fields wrote:

> JosephKK wrote:
> >
> >Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
> >I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
> >0.4 to 0.5 V.
>
> ---
> I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
> through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

Sounds about right.

I have a book here about the develpoment of active devices for radar and it's
quite unambiguous about silicon being used for microwave diodes. The early
work was actually done by GEC and BTH of the UK in conjuction with military
R&D.

As ever the Americans refined the manufacturing process. The early ones were
virtually 'hand made'.

Graham

23 Apr 2008 09:50:13

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:51:25 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>
>>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Rich
>>>
>>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>>
>>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>>0.4 to 0.5 V.
>
>---
>I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
>through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

---
Just to make sure it wasn't an anomaly, I measured 10 more and here's
what I got:

If Vf
mA V
-------+-------+
1.000 0.1495
1.000 0.1350
1.000 0.1525
1.000 0.1344
1.000 0.1495
1.000 0.1355
1.000 0.1510
1.000 0.1532
1.000 0.1496
1.000 0.1370

The equipment was set up like this:

+-------[WAVETEK 27XT]---[10k]---+----------+
|+ |A |+
[HP 6216A] [DUT] [FLUKE 8060A]
|- | |-
+--------------------------------+----------+

The 8060A draws 25�A on the 2 volt range, so the current out of the
6216A was set to 1.025mA for every reading in order to force 1.000mA
through the 1N5817s.

Turns out the power supply was impossible to adjust spot on, so I put
the 10k resistor in there to give me fewer �A per degree of rotation
of the knob. Worked great.

JF

23 Apr 2008 07:52:46

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:50:13 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com > wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:51:25 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>
>>>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>Rich
>>>>
>>>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>>>
>>>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>>>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>>>0.4 to 0.5 V.
>>
>>---
>>I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
>>through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.
>
>---
>Just to make sure it wasn't an anomaly, I measured 10 more and here's
>what I got:
>
> If Vf
> mA V
>-------+-------+
> 1.000 0.1495
> 1.000 0.1350
> 1.000 0.1525
> 1.000 0.1344
> 1.000 0.1495
> 1.000 0.1355
> 1.000 0.1510
> 1.000 0.1532
> 1.000 0.1496
> 1.000 0.1370
>
>
>The equipment was set up like this:
>
>
>
> +-------[WAVETEK 27XT]---[10k]---+----------+
> |+ |A |+
>[HP 6216A] [DUT] [FLUKE 8060A]
> |- | |-
> +--------------------------------+----------+
>
>
>The 8060A draws 25�A on the 2 volt range, so the current out of the
>6216A was set to 1.025mA for every reading in order to force 1.000mA
>through the 1N5817s.
>
>Turns out the power supply was impossible to adjust spot on, so I put
>the 10k resistor in there to give me fewer �A per degree of rotation
>of the knob. Worked great.
>
>JF

Most DVM's seem to output 1 mA on the diode-test range. I don't know
how much of a convention that is. They do seem to disagree on how much
voltage they'll indicate: some display the Vf of an LED, some say open
or overload or whatever.

John

24 Apr 2008 00:58:28

Phil Allison

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

"John Fields"

> I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
> through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.

** But you well knew that Motorola describe them as having " Extremely low
Vf " - now didn't you ??

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/1N5817-D.PDF

BTW:

how hot did you make it get first ?

.... Phil

23 Apr 2008 12:58:20

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:40:49 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>
>>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Rich
>>>
>>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>>
>>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>>0.4 to 0.5 V.
>
>This is a silicon point-contact diode, essentially the same as the
>WWII parts, expect that they get to use modern, very pure silicon:
>
>http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/PC_SXBandMixer.pdf
>
>Skyworks makes some very low capacitance (below 0.5 pF) schottkies
>that are similar.
>
>
>This is 300 mV *max* at 100 mA, so should be down there. I think the
>schottky curve is sorta similar to the silicon PN curve, which is 60
>mV per decade of current.
>
>http://www.centralsemi.com/PDFs/products/CMHSH5-2L.PDF
>
>I posted some WWII diode curves elsewhere, well under 200 mV at 1 mA.
>
>Gee.
>
>John
>
>

Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
it's 280 pF!

John

23 Apr 2008 16:27:21

John Popelish

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Larkin wrote:

> Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
> schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
> it's 280 pF!

I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
characteristics.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

23 Apr 2008 13:51:32

John Larkin

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:27:21 -0400, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net >
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
>> schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
>> it's 280 pF!
>
>I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
>will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
>characteristics.

"Back diode" is interesting, too. They are, to my knowledge, the only
germanium diodes made using an ic-type mask process, and about the
only Ge diodes still made at all, except for photodiodes of course.
They are still the best microwave detectors.

John

23 Apr 2008 17:03:20

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:52:46 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:50:13 -0500, John Fields
><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:51:25 -0500, John Fields
>><jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
>>>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
>>>>>>> communication equipment during the Second World War.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
>>>>>>announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Rich
>>>>>
>>>>>Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
>>>>>Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
>>>>>as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
>>>>>decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
>>>>>
>>>>>The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
>>>>>of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
>>>>>conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
>>>>>guys didn't develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
>>>>>their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
>>>>I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
>>>>0.4 to 0.5 V.
>>>
>>>---
>>>I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
>>>through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.
>>
>>---
>>Just to make sure it wasn't an anomaly, I measured 10 more and here's
>>what I got:
>>
>> If Vf
>> mA V
>>-------+-------+
>> 1.000 0.1495
>> 1.000 0.1350
>> 1.000 0.1525
>> 1.000 0.1344
>> 1.000 0.1495
>> 1.000 0.1355
>> 1.000 0.1510
>> 1.000 0.1532
>> 1.000 0.1496
>> 1.000 0.1370
>>
>>
>>The equipment was set up like this:
>>
>>
>>
>> +-------[WAVETEK 27XT]---[10k]---+----------+
>> |+ |A |+
>>[HP 6216A] [DUT] [FLUKE 8060A]
>> |- | |-
>> +--------------------------------+----------+
>>
>>
>>The 8060A draws 25�A on the 2 volt range, so the current out of the
>>6216A was set to 1.025mA for every reading in order to force 1.000mA
>>through the 1N5817s.
>>
>>Turns out the power supply was impossible to adjust spot on, so I put
>>the 10k resistor in there to give me fewer �A per degree of rotation
>>of the knob. Worked great.
>>
>>JF
>
>Most DVM's seem to output 1 mA on the diode-test range.

---
Into a short.
---

> don't know how much of a convention that is.

---
I have 5, and on the DIODE TEST function they put out:

EMCO DMR3250 1.3229 mA

SPECO DMR2500 1.2045 mA

WAVETEK DM5XL 1.0387 mA

WAVETEK 27XT 1.0098 mA

FLUKE 8060A 0.943 mA

So it seems to be pretty conventional.
---

>They do seem to disagree on how much
>voltage they'll indicate: some display the Vf of an LED, some say open
>or overload or whatever.

---
Depends on the Vf of the LED, I suspect. All of mine display the
voltage drop of the DUT, whether it's a resistor or a diode or
whatever, and display overload when the voltage gets to be > 1.999V.

Here are the results of an experiment I just finished running:

+-------------------------------------+
| |
+--[SOURCE]--------[R]--------[LOAD]--+

VOLTS OHMS MILLIAMPS

DMR3520 0.123 0 1.3229
2.000 12300 0.1773

DMR2500 0.100 0 1.2045
2.000 1913 0.616

DM5XL 0.106 0 1.0387
2.000 6072 0.3273

27XT 0.101 0 1.0098
2.000 5423 0.3662

8060A 0.095 0 0.943
2.000 2056 0.934

The series resistance was a Clarostat 240C decade resistor box, and
for the first four entries the load was the Fluke 8060A. In the last
one it was the Wavetek 27XT.

The test was run by measuring the current from the source (the meter
switched to the DIODE TEST function), recording it, then recording the
voltage indicated on the source's display, then switching in
resistance until the source's display indicated overload.

Interesting to note that the Fluke has an almost constant current
source feeding the DUT, while none of the others do.

JF

23 Apr 2008 17:08:09

John Fields

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:58:28 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au > wrote:

>
>"John Fields"
>
>> I just pulled a random 1N5817 out of stock, put 1.000 milliamps
>> through it and measured 0.1383 volts across it.
>
>
>** But you well knew that Motorola describe them as having " Extremely low
>Vf " - now didn't you ??
>
>http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/1N5817-D.PDF

---
Actually, I didn't, but thanks for the clue.
---

>BTW:
>
> how hot did you make it get first ?

---
Well, I showed it my penis...

JF

23 Apr 2008 18:39:06

John Popelish

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:27:21 -0400, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net>
> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> Central CMMSH1-20 is a really tiny, about 1206 size, 1 amp 20 volt
>>> schottky, great for small buck switchers; measures 201 mV at 1 mA. But
>>> it's 280 pF!
>> I think if you do a Google search for "zero bias diode" you
>> will find things a lot more similar to 1N23 in electrical
>> characteristics.
>
> "Back diode" is interesting, too. They are, to my knowledge, the only
> germanium diodes made using an ic-type mask process, and about the
> only Ge diodes still made at all, except for photodiodes of course.
> They are still the best microwave detectors.

Yes, interesting, but not very much like the characteristics
of 1N23.

--
Regards,

John Popelish

26 Apr 2008 16:39:21

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:09:10 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

>In article <pd3t04l5i3gck6c4r87f0a51e2qr5hia0e@4ax.com>, JosephKK wrote:
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found
>>>>>said they were silicon.
>>>>
>>>>The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
>>>>put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
>>>>"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
>>>
>>>What test?
>>
>>V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.
>
> I have seen silicon schottky diodes that drop about .3 volt at 1 amp.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Not arguing that. Would that diode make a good microwave detector?

26 Apr 2008 16:42:57

JosephKK

Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equipment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:04:37 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com > wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:10 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
>>>>>"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
>>>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
>>>>>>> <jfields@austininstruments.com